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Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9862
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 22 10:41 am Post subject:
whenever the Netherlands are held up as a great example of promoting cycling - and indeed they are - I always want to shout that is is mostly flat terrain there, and that there is a reason why it isn't so popular in, say, hilly Devon. Saying that, I am considering investing in an ebike, which I think might be a logical first step before an EV

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 22 10:46 am Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

whenever the Netherlands are held up as a great example of promoting cycling - and indeed they are - I always want to shout that is is mostly flat terrain there, and that there is a reason why it isn't so popular in, say, hilly Devon.

Saying that, I am considering investing in an ebike, which I think might be a logical first step before an EV

It's folly to suggest that one answer will solve all problems in all places. Most urban areas are relatively flat however.

EV bikes are still relatively new on the scene - they are likely going to make bicycles more of a solution in many places where they wouldn't previously have been.
The roads near me are not very safe for cyclists, and I'm very rural, so even an EV bike probably isn't the thing here.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46185
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 22 12:14 pm Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

our first generation e bikes coped with all but one devon bendy hill going up, the new ones can climb far better

the cheap "commuter" types are ok in a smooth and fairly flat place, cheap off road ones are not too good on or off road
good off road ones are often good on roads and tracks which can be rather lumpy for road bike versions

you get what you pay for, and then customize it to suit your needs and body
fine if you can mostly avoid roads(even with defensive driving tweaks it is still a bike and they are in big metal things)
devon roads are either deserted with surprises or a bit busy iirc so off-road capacity to use byways and paths etc is useful(a shortcut across a golf course can save your life) and it can be quicker and easier in some landscapes

ps the 15mph motor cut out rule is dangeroos in traffic, folk quite reasonably expect a bike that gets from 0 to 15 very quickly to reach 25 to 30 soon after, then they get you from behind
this issue can be resolved, although it has legal implications to resolve it

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9862
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 22 12:37 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

I know quite a few with ebikes here - generally folk are cycling everywhere, no one is using it to get up to high speed and just hitting the button on particularly steep bits. Which we have many.
Fortunately, Devon is making good inroads (scuse pun) into making a good network of cycle paths, and my favourite is traffic free tarmac. Up until a couple of years ago I was cycling by me-power from sea level at Plymouth up onto the moors, almost entirely on dedicated cycle path. but am a bit creaky for it now and envy having that button to push.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 22 1:06 pm Post subject:
My mother's in Devon and bought an ebike a year or so ago. She's absolutely loving it! As you said, she tends to use it as a normal bike and uses the motor to assist up the hilly bits.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46185
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 22 4:01 pm Post subject:

at 15kg even with good gearing* ours are a bit heavy unless a minimum setting is on
on full with hills is ok

fast if appropriate is essential in urban traffic, polite is essential in mixed use settings

the cut off thing at 15 is scary leaving traffic lights, crossing A roads or on a roundabout

*i had my drive gear changed for lower cadence, losing a few degrees off a maximum slope is a fair price for making it work well at 65 rpm rather than 80 rpm

our current ones are pedal power control and pedal hub motor, ie we need to pedal but it more than doubles it if you want it to, the old ones had twist throttle or pedal control and a rear hub motor, not as nice although the grip throttle was useful for a rolling rest or uphill walking it

devon is hilly, good brakes are essential, discs both ends seems wise, good disc brakes, the downhills were a bit scary and i come from the pennines where a few roads are 1 in 3 in parts

ps it is not about high speed, it is about urban traffic speeds without a rough power cutout just when it is most likely to kill you
it can be about a power cut out on a moderate corner, try taking your foot of an accelerator a third into a corner, don't it can become messy for steering and for folk around you trying to predict your vectors(most are rubbish anyway)

Allegedly my motor will still help at 30+ on perfect tarmac with the front forks and tyres set hard
i have never needed more than 20 ish to be safe on urban roads as agility counts for a lot as a survival skill

that 15 cut off point was ill chosen, probably by a committee that have no practical experience of the effects of that on real world riding

as an example, down hill to a visible and smooth but tight corner
if you go in at 15+ and want to accelerate out to stick to the line it has to be human powered if you can as you bleed kinetic energy
tweaked the motor will pull as well, and you can come out at 15+ rather than slide off sideways or have a wobble trying to hold it and pedal too hard

ps i have often been overtaken by human powered ones, some of which were ridden safely
my feeling is i will do my best not to get hurt or hurt anyone, furious riding has no place in my life
unless i am dodging road things a gentle float along or an interesting obstacle track off road route at low speed is fine

another good reason for good brakes is sudden stops, they can be required for assorted reasons, e bikes have extra mass and often are loaded with stuff as well
the sort of brakes that will work on a stepper are not up to the dynamics, double discs and preferably good hydraulic ones

another brake thing, they are best separate from the control gear, our gen one bikes cut the motor if the brakes were applied, these adjust the motor depending how hard you press a pedal
much nicer

sorry i am talking about a serious investment for this sort of e bike, they are nice and practical and safer than floppy bits of carp with poor control gear and worse running gear though

they are based on these we both have shock absorbing seat posts, racks, i have a gear upgrade, we both have very good tyres, i had my handle bars made shorter, both of us have chosen different pedals to off the shelf, etc

considering the two frames and power/control stuff are the same apart from the paint we both have created a bike that suits us for an extra few hundred quid and some upcycling from older bikes and some paid for advi ce and tuning works(high hundreds if all the bits were new)

even though i am not young fit or healthy it can be practical transport for some tasks including shopping(see racks and bags and ting) and it is fun on daft surfaces and slopes and as a way to cover distance that i could no longer do on foot
tt also uses hers as work transport if she needs to visit a school or go to a meeting

flat city or lumpy country the same sort of parameters are important

we have tried a few "courtesy" ones when ours were being maintained etc they are very shonky and scary to ride let alone ride in the real world

our first ones were a bit mark one landy crossed with a model t ford

after chopping and tweeking these are more class b quatro crossed with a silverline pram

ps can it hit a random potato and you stay on? that is down to the bike as much as you, stable under stress is important both sides of the saddle

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 4:33 am Post subject:
The 15 mph may be due to the morons that have decided that electric bikes/scooters/etc are an appropriate tool for whizzing through crowded pedestrian precincts. I've nearly been taken out a few times in various places in Europe, and I'd certainly not want to be hit at 20 mph.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46185
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 6:22 am Post subject:

i try very hard to avoid pedestrians in shared spaces(not easy if they are taking selfies etc) as any collision is going to hurt me as well as them and hurting them is rude

the 15 was written by car drivers at a guess, either they like to retain their score rates and retain the Bystander Cup which they have held for a hundred years or so as e bikes are so dangerous or they want to retain their score rate cos the 15 cut out in traffic makes it easy for them to scores

gz is the person to ask about bike speeds but iirc many stepper cyclists can easily exceed 15, many around here do as they pass me on cycle tracks or roads

i have no idea of the numbers of fatalities caused but mobility scooters might well exceed those caused by all types of cyclists

as it is very rare it gets press attention and the fossil lobby political shills pounce on it as an example to justify selling oil to folk in metal boxes who kill far more by direct and indirect means rather than developing a clean safe integrated transport system

at the mo the mail is trying to demonize all cyclists, there have been direct confrontations of innocent cyclists being abused by folk in cars waving newspapers at them during the most recent sortie into a distractional culture war to prevent folk looking at real problems and causes

most car users are reasonable if a little careless (understatement), but that does not alter the kill scores by collision or poisoning, nor does it alter that vested interests are opposed to losing their income stream

would i rather

A: dodge an amsterdam window cleaner on a bike with a 5M long ladder on his shoulder(wow)
or
B: dodge a van with a roof rack and perhaps a ladder is not tied it on properly (not something you want to see from the rearview mirror

)

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15946

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 7:57 am Post subject:

Having cut outs at any speed on any motorised vehicle is dangerous. There used to be a cut out at 30 mph on Post Office vans (talking WWII vintage), which my father learnt to drive on. There is still a cut out at 30mph for mopeds, and that again can be problematical when trying to get out of the way of trouble. E-scooters are a pain on pavements, mainly because they are being ridden illegally by youngsters too young and too daft to have a driving licence. I nearly got taken out by one a while back in a local village; only consolation is it would have hurt him as much as me.

If I had an e-bike I would need a trailer with enough room to take at least 10 bags of charcoal, as that would be the main way to make it worth while.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46185
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 8:07 am Post subject:
cargo bikes are ace and can handle more than that not cheap for a good un

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46185
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 8:12 am Post subject:
ps my ladder, my van no one was hurt , the ladder and the front of a car did not do too well

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9862
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 8:59 am Post subject:
I'm pretty sure the speed restrictions on ebikes are to stop the selling of what are really mopeds or motorbikes in disguise because there is a useless pedal attached so technically it is a push bike. This keeps them as pedal machines with a boost rather electric machines with a pedal. and locally that is how people use them. They cycle, but get a bit of a push uphill.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 9:40 am Post subject:
Always nice to find the rare instances when our rules make more sense.. https://himiwaybike.com/blogs/news/ebike-speed-limit-in-the-us I believe Nicky is correct that the speed governing is primarily to distinguish between electric bicycle and electric motorcycle with pedals

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46185
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 22 11:13 am Post subject:

my 250 w is very adequate as is about 20 mph

giving it a full horse would be daft and scary

if i wanted to play with speed and horses i know folk who make rather special ice machines, feed the horse nitro is only the start of how daft those things can be for covering a short distance rather quickly
tt bikes are "enthusiastic" and little use on a road or byway( and i beat one from the pub to the flats on foot vs road in a 800m race)

i know them, i do not encourage them

750 on a cargo bike that needs to do hills seems about right, could a pack pony carry that load up that hill? that is the drive power needed

i have serious misgivings about electric scooters
we have hire ones round here
massive risk to the rider, most have not a clue about road sense being car drivers
they are not stable on lumpy or "soiled" surfaces

being car drivers on things that cannot manage slopes(we have a few even in york)they use roads, see road sense etc, or try driving in mixed use spaces in ways that are not ideal

the centre of gravity is very moody even with an average sized rider, they are not built for a gutterside "bike lane" on an A road, nor are bikes, i ride that as a road user(did i mention how poor bike lanes can be to ride in or on no matter how much propaganda has been splurted about creating them)

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15946

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 22 8:06 am Post subject:

In some ways I can see the sense in controlling the speed, but an ordinary bicycle can go far faster than that, and they often do, with less efficient brakes, which can be interesting on some hills with bends or crossroads at the bottom.

We don't have hire e-scooters locally, but there are in the local city, and from the complaints in the paper they are not ridden in accordance with the requirements. The council are still continuing with them though. Round here it is more usual to find illegal private ones ridden by young idiots who have no sense and no road sense either. Sadly, the way they are going they will not live long enough to get a driving licence.

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