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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 23 12:21 pm Post subject:
back to the plot, or perhaps theme is a better word cereal is a problem oils are fairly plausible, ditto sugar plant proteins are very plausible critters are complicated and varied fruit, umm the war ag regs had a mixed impact and the extra production was far below need, various national food plans have gone horribly wrong, doing it properly needs joined up and site specific thinking

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15947

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 23 9:24 am Post subject:

Would agree with that and animals are part of the mix. I remember seeing a post ages ago that Rob put up showing grazed and ungrazed Ings, and the grazing improved them no end. Similarly we have a steep slope opposite us on chalk that was ploughed up some years ago and sown with cereal; it has now reverted to pasture as either it was too steep for anyone without a death wish to work, or the flints and thin soil made it uneconomic to crop.

People could do a lot more with their gardens as they did during WWII. My grandfather had an allotment on the embankment above the railway line then, and he and my father worked it and the garden between them to get plenty of fruit and veg. My father told me that people said they were 'lucky' even through they couldn't be bothered themselves to work their gardens. My father was in a reserved occupation but also did St. John's Ambulance work and probably had to take his turn fire watching, so not as if he had spare time on his hands.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4612
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 23 12:51 pm Post subject:
That`s where these climate people and all Government parties have got it so wrong where they want to reduce livestock numbers,fertility will drop and it will revert to scrub and will succumb to the increase in fires.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 23 5:07 pm Post subject:
i may be one of these climate people, critters have a place in the plausible mitigations building soils, expert hydrogeologists, healthy wood land, etc, and they are tasty mega farms for milk or meat as an industrial hi input regime, not so good sustainable critters are ok

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 23 5:10 pm Post subject:
ps we need to sustain them and them us

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15947

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 23 9:24 am Post subject:

Agree Y Gwyn. A mixed farm to me seems a sensible way of going about things. Some food grown for the animals and the animals grazing on land unsuitable for crops and the rest more fertile from the dung and grazing.

Mega animal farms and natural grazing are completely different things. Mega farms mean mega problems with the manure, and having to feed the animals all the time.

Round a village where the farm shops I use are, there is a large pig farm that is a mixture of intensive and free range. The free range has been there a long time, and wasn't too much of a problem as the pigs dug over the fields, removing pernicious weeds and manured them. It was then used for crops for a year or two. Now they have intensive, there is a general smell of pig over the whole area, dung removal to goodness knows where and crops grown only to feed the pigs.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4612
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 23 4:50 pm Post subject:
This is where the thinking does`nt join up, I`m not a fan of mega farms and their zero grazing systems but when the talk is about reducing methane in cattle these mega farms have a better chance of doing this via anaerobic digesters utilising the methane and generating electricity,yet a small farm like myself would`nt have a hope of doing it.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 23 7:24 pm Post subject:

mega shed farms make my blood run cold

dried seaweed in the licks and building soil is quite low methane, it is quite low fuel if done well ie less fossil byproduct methane

biodigesters help at the manure end but do nowt for fuel related methane
they also need a consistent feedstock

renewable leccy for tractors, machines and stock transport etc would have quite an effect on agricultural methane(and co2)

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4612
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 23 8:40 pm Post subject:

New postPosted: Wed Mar 01, 23 7:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

biodigesters help at the manure end but do nowt for fuel related methane
they also need a consistent feedstock

Well i`m sure you know,its the methane from the manure that generates the electricity,and with a megafarm there is a consistent feedstock.

There`s a lot of these biodigesters been constructed in England on farms,not for methane extraction from manure,but crops,grown specifically for the digester,1,000`s of acres,add that to the land under solar panels and whats going to be planted for carbon credits,no wonder the food situation is in a mess.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15947

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 23 10:19 am Post subject:

I think some digesters use manure of used bedding, but as you say, growing crops for energy doesn't seem a good use of the land. Solar panels can be a different thing, but they need to be managed correctly. It makes sense to graze sheep between them or have them on roofs or places that can't be used for grazing or growing crops.

Another use for biochar is to add the dust to the feed of the cows where it apparently reduces the amount of methane they produce in digestion. It will also absorb things so when spread on a field will release the nitrogenous molecules less fast so less run off.

I also agree that with megafarms they can produce more electricity or gas for powering machinery than a small farm, but they do require a lot more input of food etc. from outside, so at present more fossil fuel to transport it.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4612
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 23 5:44 pm Post subject:

Yes manure from deep litter and slurry used on farms and the methane to generate electricity and the remaining digestate spread on the land,

It was`nt that mega farms can generate more electricity than smaller farms i was mentioning,but most smaller farms simply could not afford such a set-up.

Solar panels on farm buildings and factory roofs makes sense on productive land is madness,same as the planting of tree`s and crops grown to feed digesters.

To be honest,delivering a 21ton load of feed to a big farm uses less fossil fuel than delivering 3ton loads to 7 small farms .

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15947

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 23 9:24 am Post subject:

I agree. The price of the equipment is the main problem. It might be sensible to help smaller farmers who have enough to buy the equipment and at least generate their own electricity requirements. Judging by some of the lorries we encounter along our country lanes, some even moderate farms either get through a lot of feed or produce a lot of grain, but scale is a problem for deliveries.

I don't see any point in growing crops or planting trees or short term coppice like willow for power production either. They usually take more overall input than can be got out. The converse of that is that in Devon ash wood is very hard to come by because most of it is sent to a power station in Kent, which currently isn't working because of a breakdown and has fields and fields of timber stacked and waiting that will rot. They have 'contracts' with suppliers, so a lot is going to them even when they don't need it as they can't break the contract without penalties.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4612
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 23 12:19 pm Post subject:

With smaller farms it would depend if they have enough of the feedstock/manure to feed these digesters to make it viable,one fairly big stock farm near me built one around 5yrs back,must have been a flaw in design or construction as soon as it started working it exploded smashing windows in the house and buildings etc.

Government subsidy pays for that ash wood to rot like it pays Drax 6 Billion to burn wood chip/pellets yet they made 85 Million profit.
Something is wrong somewhere.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15947

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 23 8:59 am Post subject:

Yes, the electricity generation industry does need looking at rather carefully. I am afraid after the experiment of having all the utilities privatised, it makes a very good case for them being nationalised again. They do need proper funding though as one excuse for privatising them was that they cost the taxpayer too much, but somehow there seems to be a lot less money for other things since they went private.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 23 10:46 am Post subject:

energy is one aspect of sustainable and adequate food supply

with current tech and infrastructure, on farm pv, moving water or if the landscape is appropriately shaped for a steady wind a turbine on a stick are all plausible, regardless of grid connections etc
not cheap

grid energy very not cheap or of a predictable price

as food security is the prime mission, energy is only one part
what food, where and how fill more of the question list

Q 1 do we have control of the current situation?
Q2 how do we take control of the situation?

after 2 we can start to make things happen

Q 3 what "land" can produce food?

Q 4 by what means?

etc

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