Tail Docking

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Tail Docking
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Beckyess

Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 1076
Location: Worcestershire

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 8:22 am Post subject:
So why can't they be bred to have naturally short tails? There are breeds of sheep around that are naturally short tailed so there is an option. Becky

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 8:24 am Post subject:
I guess the answer is probably one of two things. 1) For some reason, short tails don't breed out in certain breeds, or, more likely, 2) Tail docking is easy, cheap, and not a problem.

NeathChris

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 1387
Location: Neath, South Wales

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 8:28 am Post subject:
The answer is the latter nick.

Tradbritfowlco

Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 526

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 8:41 am Post subject:

Cho-ku-ri wrote:

Sheep and dogs GM'd to have no tail. I like it.

well not really, i wouldnt advocate genetically modified anything!

i mean just selection - just like selecting for long or short legs in dogs!

gingerwelly

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 419
Location: Wales ...in cardiff at the mo but from mid wales

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 11:19 am Post subject:

lots of hill sheep are not docked because of cost .... in mid wales lots of the larger farms lamb out on the hill and the sheep only come in one or twice a year ... so never get done .....and farmers who have 2,000 + sheep don't really care if a few sheep are lost due to fly blow ...but the smaller farmers (not that small that every sheep can be named and checked everyday) the loss of these sheep is a big deal so the best thing is to dock the tails when they are young ..reduces fly blow, pain and long term stress to the animal, also reduces dirty bums (impacts the cost of sale price and shearing costs ...the australian guys who do my dads sheep charge extra for dirty wool as it blunts thier equipment+takes more time)

im not a big fan of the rings .... they are left on the ground once the tail comes off and birds pick them up as they look like little worms, and they get washed into water ways (like rubber bands they must have some impact on species like turtles or sea birds?) I would always opt for cutting the tails off ..its quick and in 28 years i have never seen a lamb getting infected due to cutting off the tail

Tradbritfowlco

Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 526

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 12:30 pm Post subject:
gingerwelly, your sig is great - what an insight!!!

SheepShed

Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 332
Location: In the middle of a Welsh forest

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 1:17 pm Post subject:

Gervase wrote:

PS: having just watched the video, I'm willing to bet a tenner that it is footage of a lamb with a castration ring, not a tail ring. I have seen such behaviour with castration, but never with a tail ring.

I notice the video doesn't actually show the tails being docked, which seems very stange. I wonder why not ? I've docked hundreds of lambs tails with elastic bands, just did 4 an hour ago, and I've never seen a reaction like that. Usually they don't even appear to notice and behave just like the supposedly anaesthetised lamb in the video.
All in all, I'm very suspicious of this video.

gingerwelly

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 419
Location: Wales ...in cardiff at the mo but from mid wales

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 9:15 pm Post subject:
it looks like the ring has been put on quite high up the tail.... Ive seen a few lambs act like that with a tail ring.. but that was because the ring rolled slightly up the tail, rather than been closed straight onto the tail

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45641
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 9:25 pm Post subject:
with dog, big tail ,little tail . 4 generations

Tradbritfowlco

Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 526

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 07 9:31 pm Post subject:
blimey, didnt think it'd be that quick!

Beckyess

Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 1076
Location: Worcestershire

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 07 8:25 am Post subject:
Actually someone did an experiment with Boxers as to whether they could produce a naturally short tailed one by outcrossing to a corgi, it took just 2 generations, the bob tail gene is dominant in dogs. However, dogs I feel would be easier as they have larger litters so more pups to chose from, I think with sheep it could take a lot longer. Becky

guyandzoe

Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 78

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 07 8:31 pm Post subject:

Ive just come to this and Im a little angered by so many folk going on about stuff they know nout about.

Why would anyone want to see sheep roaming around with long tails and being eaten alive with maggotts. Surely we dont want to be that magot friendly!!!

Fly strike is a very very nasty thing to experience not least for the sheep but also for those (all keepers of sheep) who have to deal with it.

When was the last time any of you saw a genetically short tailed native sheep? You cant breed short tails without short tails already being in the flock. And who could tell since theyre all reduced or dead from strike!!

Hill sheep are docked but they are kept somewhat longer than lowland sheep to keep the rear better protected from the weather.

This gives some problems for flockmasters because it can cause the ram to miss thetarget and ewes have to be close shawn to let him in.

Farmers and flockmasters are not sadistic ogres nor are they just out to make work for themselves. There are real and genuine reasons for tail docking.

rant rant rant....

guy

Beckyess

Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 1076
Location: Worcestershire

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 07 8:00 am Post subject:

You statement 'hill sheep are docked' simply isn't true. Not all sheep are docked, and as I have said around here it's about 50/50. When I was looking at sheep breeds I looked around for breeds that either weren't docked or were naturally short. The only naturally short one was the Icelandic but I believe we should try to preserve native British Breeds so should I ever be in a position tohave sheep I would opt for the Balwen, a longtailed sheep that isn't ever docked, in fact it is a requirement of the breed standard to have a full tail.
So stop making sweeping statements. Many of us chose to eat meat from sources where there is minimal inhumane treatment of animals such as free range and organic, no intensively reared pork, chicken etc so why get shirty when some of us may want to go that step further and chose lamb from animals that aren't docked?
You say we don't know what we are talking about but your statement that all sheep are docked clearly shows you don't either.
Becky

NeathChris

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 1387
Location: Neath, South Wales

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 07 8:19 am Post subject:
I think to imply tail docking of shep is inhumane is stupid! Of course much more humane to let the maggots have them. rant over

Bodger

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 13524

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 07 8:30 am Post subject:

Breeding short tailed dogs from naturally long tailed dogs would be as easy as breeding three legged dogs !
Your boxers crossed with corgis , no matter how many generations you breed them for simply wouldn't be boxers anymore.

Originally tail docking was done mostly for practical reasons.
In the main these reasons don't exist anymore and although at the moment some breeds look visually strange with long tails, I'm sure its a sight people will become acustomed to.

In terriers the docking of tails was done for two reasons. Firstly a gaily held tail sticking up high above them could scrape on the roof of the earths as they worked below ground and in theory could scrape on the roof of the tunnel and cause a collapse . Secondly a docked tail certainly forms a handy handle on a terrier for pulling him from the earth. Properly docked working terriers should only have appoximately one third of the tail docked.

The only other dogs that sometimes need their tails docking are some of the working gun dogs. Spaniels are very active as they work through the under growth and wag their tails vigerously all day long. They bash their tails against things and the amount of blood they spatter from badly damaged tails is horrid. The bleeding takes ages to stop and usually restarts the next time the dog is worked.
Docking in the case of working spaniels is in my opinion correct. With just about all the other breeds of dogs tail docking is cosmetic and we will simply have to get use to seeing squirrel tailed boxers and rotweilers . Not such a hardship really.
Incidentally I keep border terriers which are just about the only terriers that aren'y historicaly docked.

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