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Solar panels at home
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hardworkinghippy



Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 1110
Location: Bourrou South West France
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 05 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I know it's diiferent for us because we live in the middle of nowhere and we're off the grid, but we had two more photovoltaic panels (150 watts) delivered yesterday and I am so excited!

With them, we can power more lights and be sure of having a good few hours of internet in the winter months. (No more grazed thighs, or "I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner...e-mails "

We're very, very happy to have electricity. The cost is not much if you consider that over all the time you have it, it costs you nothing.

The most important thing to consider IMHO is the sheer, unadulterated and totally extreme pleasure you get from knowing it's clean, free, and power cuts don't stop you chatting.

HWH

Lloyd



Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 2699

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 05 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Wow, good discussion!...I know of a guy who owns a big building company. He owns a bungalow next to my old house which was in a terrace. He had water heating panels put in for the bungalow, and also heating the water for two of the terraces, 3bedrooms each, and said it would pay back within 15 years. My mate lives in one of the terraces and he said the water and radiators over Christmas, were ridiculously hot.

hardworkinghippy



Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 1110
Location: Bourrou South West France
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 05 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I think I've mentioned this before in here, but 27 years ago when I lived in Woodford, Essex I had solar water heating panels installed by a firm called Sunharvester.

I've moved house twice since then and I'm still using the same panels. I've fixed them a few times (a simple plumbing job) but they heat the water (we live in France) here for seven or eight months of the year and in the winter pre-heat the water for the wood to take over.

HWH

nettie



Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 5888
Location: Suffolk
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 05 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

HWH haven't seen you in ages!!!

Interesting what you are all saying about this, but it is adding to my notion that to follow your ethical and environmentally friendly dreams, you have to have a few bob in the first place.


tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45389
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 05 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Jonsey wrote:
from what he said they are for heating the water for his pool and that it is okay ish when maintaining a higher temp water heating but from cold it was no good.


I've never seen any houses your way panelled up, where is he?

I think he'd struggle to heat a pool with panels

Jonsey



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Chelmsford Essex
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
Jonsey wrote:
from what he said they are for heating the water for his pool and that it is okay ish when maintaining a higher temp water heating but from cold it was no good.


I've never seen any houses your way panelled up, where is he?

I think he'd struggle to heat a pool with panels


When you come over on saturday ill show you, oh and also the architect that drew up the plans for the loft ext he has them and says the same thing that they are not all that. maybe they have improved them since these guys had them fitted i dont know but can you see how you get conflicting storys, also a link was added above and it said that the guy had a anual saving of £100. he layed out £14700. and the other 50% added was a grant from the goverment it would end up that my childrens children would end up getting my money back if the products last that long. also how can these companys justify the price of these components when you only get a poor return, it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet.

judyofthewoods



Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

[/quote]

..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet.[/quote]

or a few tools, some pipe ....

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

judyofthewoods wrote:
Quote:

..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet.

or a few tools, some pipe ....

Agreed that with tools, pipe and some scrap materials one can garner useful solar water *heating*. CAT will sell you a book of plans for a few quid.
How much heat you actually get (especially in winter when there's less sun, but folks' heating needs are greater) will depend on the technology used (and the size of the installation).


BUT -
for anyone *with* a mains electricity option, *PV solar electricity* generation currently looks one of the **least** cost effective investments in either strict financial or carbon-saving terms one can make.
Insulate, insulate more, use energy saving bulbs, get solar water heating, use biofuels, put up a windmill, dam the stream for hydro, - do everything else possible, first, before buying PV panels.

HOWEVER -
if one is NOT on the mains electricity grid, like Judy and HWH (BTW I'd love to hear more about your setups), then it clearly does make sense to have some PV generating capacity, for when the stream dries up and the wind doesn't blow...

judyofthewoods



Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dougal wrote:
judyofthewoods wrote:
Quote:

..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet.

or a few tools, some pipe ....

Agreed that with tools, pipe and some scrap materials one can garner useful solar water *heating*. CAT will sell you a book of plans for a few quid.
How much heat you actually get (especially in winter when there's less sun, but folks' heating needs are greater) will depend on the technology used (and the size of the installation).


BUT -
for anyone *with* a mains electricity option, *PV solar electricity* generation currently looks one of the **least** cost effective investments in either strict financial or carbon-saving terms one can make.
Insulate, insulate more, use energy saving bulbs, get solar water heating, use biofuels, put up a windmill, dam the stream for hydro, - do everything else possible, first, before buying PV panels.

HOWEVER -
if one is NOT on the mains electricity grid, like Judy and HWH (BTW I'd love to hear more about your setups), then it clearly does make sense to have some PV generating capacity, for when the stream dries up and the wind doesn't blow...




I agree with you entirely, first and foremost we have to conserve, whatever form of power we use. I dismay at some of the articles I see in Home Power magazine, where someone installs acres of PVs so they can still consume at the same level they did on mains. Many of those installations are grid tied, so they don't do it because they can't get the mains to where they live. I also laugh at the terms often used 'free' electricity, or 'green' electricity. Well, the source energy is both, but the conversion to electricity is neither. There is a degree of negative impact, some have more impact than others, though I do believe in using renewables and the cleanest possible, appropriate to its location, and use. By use I mean, that where e.g. mechanical power is needed and a source is available, then its nonsense to convert it to electrical only to convert it back to mechanical, or where heat is needed and a heat source is available...i.e. efficient use. In a home based system there is also the advantage of not having all your eggs in one basket, though I can't see why it should not work in the wider context.
For Watts given my system is quite expensive when compared with heavily subsidised mains - and by subsidy I don't mean direct finacial input but the wider cost to the environment, clean up etc., which still has to be borne but is not costed into the product - and a lot of energy has gone into producing the hardware (including e.g. the long pipe for the hydro), but as much of the power is used for the computer, and it allows me to work from home, there are indirect energy savings by not having to commute and run a car. Another advantage of living with home based renewables is that it teaches conserving energy.

Jonsey



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Chelmsford Essex
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

judyofthewoods wrote:
dougal wrote:
judyofthewoods wrote:
Quote:

..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet.

or a few tools, some pipe ....

Agreed that with tools, pipe and some scrap materials one can garner useful solar water *heating*. CAT will sell you a book of plans for a few quid.
How much heat you actually get (especially in winter when there's less sun, but folks' heating needs are greater) will depend on the technology used (and the size of the installation).


BUT -
for anyone *with* a mains electricity option, *PV solar electricity* generation currently looks one of the **least** cost effective investments in either strict financial or carbon-saving terms one can make.
Insulate, insulate more, use energy saving bulbs, get solar water heating, use biofuels, put up a windmill, dam the stream for hydro, - do everything else possible, first, before buying PV panels.

HOWEVER -
if one is NOT on the mains electricity grid, like Judy and HWH (BTW I'd love to hear more about your setups), then it clearly does make sense to have some PV generating capacity, for when the stream dries up and the wind doesn't blow...




I agree with you entirely, first and foremost we have to conserve, whatever form of power we use. I dismay at some of the articles I see in Home Power magazine, where someone installs acres of PVs so they can still consume at the same level they did on mains. Many of those installations are grid tied, so they don't do it because they can't get the mains to where they live. I also laugh at the terms often used 'free' electricity, or 'green' electricity. Well, the source energy is both, but the conversion to electricity is neither. There is a degree of negative impact, some have more impact than others, though I do believe in using renewables and the cleanest possible, appropriate to its location, and use. By use I mean, that where e.g. mechanical power is needed and a source is available, then its nonsense to convert it to electrical only to convert it back to mechanical, or where heat is needed and a heat source is available...i.e. efficient use. In a home based system there is also the advantage of not having all your eggs in one basket, though I can't see why it should not work in the wider context.
For Watts given my system is quite expensive when compared with heavily subsidised mains - and by subsidy I don't mean direct finacial input but the wider cost to the environment, clean up etc., which still has to be borne but is not costed into the product - and a lot of energy has gone into producing the hardware (including e.g. the long pipe for the hydro), but as much of the power is used for the computer, and it allows me to work from home, there are indirect energy savings by not having to commute and run a car. Another advantage of living with home based renewables is that it teaches conserving energy.


thats ok if you are qualified to be able to do it yourself, but with the new rules that have been put in place that you cannot interfere with electricity instalations unless qualified how does a person like me with no knowledge or qualification get over this new hurdle without paying large amounts of well needed money to a instalation company or getting it condemed and making your house insurance policys void is it possible to get over this any ideas?.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45389
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Dunno bout the rest, but your bum looks big in anything

judyofthewoods



Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Ah, don't get me started on the bloody regulation mafia, damned suits, creates outlaws like myself, living on a knif's edge, or forcing people to stay on the tread mill. Not sure if there is a middle way, damned hard anyway. But one little positive info, if you do get an installation from a certified installer (I am talking about renewable electricity installations) the VAT is 'only' 5%. The bit of work I had done on my installation (rigging up the first two panels on a frame provided by the installer), cost me as much as the VAT would have cost, so I had something extra.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Jonsey wrote:
thats ok if you are qualified to be able to do it yourself, but with the new rules that have been put in place that you cannot interfere with electricity instalations unless qualified how does a person like me with no knowledge or qualification get over this new hurdle without paying large amounts of well needed money to a instalation company or ...

Point 1: You can only get a Grant if *whatever* solar system is installed by an "approved installer". PV without a grant is fantastically expensive. DIY solar (water) heating is feasible, but if super-cheap is unlikely to be pretty...
Point 2: A solar (water) heating system requires no more electrickery than a pump (potentially a small central heating circulating pump) and a control box with a couple of (toy-train voltage) temperature sensors - all this can be plugged into an ordinary socket. The new electrical regs need not interfere. Apart from that its just plumbing... (and maybe a bit of roofing.)
Point 3: If anyone's planning to generate power (anyhow) and sell surplus back into the grid - you are going to need a pro installer for the hookup.

Jonsey - if you are interested in DIY solar (water) heating then do have a look at
https://www.cat.org.uk
for courses, books, tipsheets and even some materials.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28098
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

As you say solar water heating is in reality fantastically cheap and simple, so it was a salesmans dream when it was fashionable. My parents forked out buckets of money for a system

jema

judyofthewoods



Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 05 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

there are also two ways of getting solar hot water without pumps, but would not work in every situation. The first is having the panels below your tank (I think the minimum is about 3-4 feet for it to work well), this can make them more vulnerable to damage, and shading is more of a problem. The other method is a closed system batch water heater, which will need a pressure relief valve (a little inexpensive thingy that goes into the line with a T). Think of it as a large expanded bit of your pipe coming into the house, like a snake that has just eaten a whole rabbit, with the rabbit being your solar collector. Being direct, its not so good using old radiators for the job, as you would get rust in the water. The second volume of the Earthship trillogy describe a batch heater, there is also something on a batch heater here
https://beaverlake.homestead.com/files/BATCH.mht
(the page can be slow to load)
I will be doing some experiments this spring on batch heaters, and will put it on my website.

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