'Registered Smallholding' vs 'House with Land'?

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'Registered Smallholding' vs 'House with Land'?

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sally_in_wales
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 20809
Location: sunny wales

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 16 4:51 pm Post subject: 'Registered Smallholding' vs 'House with Land'?

This shouldn't be as hard a question to answer as it seems to be, but my google-fu is failing me.

We're looking at cashing in my parents' and our place and getting somewhere together with workshop space for us so that we can expand our own business and help mum look after dad in the process. A couple of the possible options are listed as 'registered smallholdings', nothing too dramatic, 3-6 acres, but I'm struggling to find a nice clear definition of what exactly that means in terms of what we can then do with it.

Are we committing to having livestock for example, or would we be able to plant woodlands on some parts? Where do I look to find out what the broad possibilities and limitations are?

Bebo

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12590
Location: East Sussex

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 16 4:59 pm Post subject:

The thing you need to avoid is anywhere with an Agricultural Occupancy Condition. This means that it can only be occupied by people who's main income comes from (or came from if retired) agriculture.

My understanding of the meaning of Registered is that you have a CPH number, which means that you can get herd numbers etc for tagging any livestock that you have. Having a CPH number doesn't mean that you have to keep livestock, but you can't keep them (or move them or get them slaughtered) without one.

sally_in_wales
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 20809
Location: sunny wales

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 16 5:17 pm Post subject:
That makes sense, thanks My current pipedream is having just enough land that we can have the usual few chickens nearer the house, but put a couple of acres under coppice and orchard so its productive but not in need of daily monitoring in the way that a field of sheep would be.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 16 5:35 pm Post subject:
There's no such thing as a registered small holding. As Bebo says, land can be registered as agricultural or garden, and can have a holding number, which, in various formats allows you to claim money from the Germans and legally apply to keep livestock on it.

Bebo

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12590
Location: East Sussex

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 16 8:32 pm Post subject:

sally_in_wales wrote:

That makes sense, thanks

My current pipedream is having just enough land that we can have the usual few chickens nearer the house, but put a couple of acres under coppice and orchard so its productive but not in need of daily monitoring in the way that a field of sheep would be.

In that case if it has a CPH or not won't matter. Even if it hasn't and you later decide you want livestock it isn't hard to get a holding number. Just avoid looking at anywhere with an AOC.

Round here the price of places with any land is higher because it's in demand by the horsey brigade.

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 16 9:22 am Post subject:

You might also want to check what planning category the land is. For example, my field is not part of my garden, even though they are one property. Thus I cannot lawfully grow vegetables in it, or keep pet sheep in it, or actually put up a swing. I could lawfully graze meat animals or grow vegetables to sell in it, because that is agriculture and not classed as development. I can't keep horses in it, because horses have their own special planning category, unless they are actually draught animals.

It sounds petty and pedantic, and planning won't bother you unless you do something provocative, like put up a polutunnel (which you might want to do) or the neighbours complain. Which they might. Neighbours can be horribly petty, especially if the people before you weren't very considerate.

I think what you need to look for is 'use ancillary to the enjoyment of the dwelling house' Avoid 'open countryside' (which is what mine supposedly is) or agricultural, unless you are planning on selling stuff.

Like Nick said, registered is fictional. Planning, sadly isn't.

sally_in_wales
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 20809
Location: sunny wales

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 16 7:58 pm Post subject:

wellington womble wrote:

You might also want to check what planning category the land is.

How does one check that easily at the browsing for property stage? Should the estate agents have that sort of thing on file? Given that you are all saying that there is no such thing as a 'registered smallholding' but thats what we keep seeing on estate agent blurb, I'm getting a bit confused about what info we should be able to get as part of the basic information package

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 16 8:09 pm Post subject:

sally_in_wales wrote:

wellington womble wrote:

You might also want to check what planning category the land is.

What does the estate agent say when you ask them what it means? They're selling and taking your money. Get them to explain. Anything hugely binding probably should be shown in initial details.

Any restrictive covenants or binding conditions are exactly what you're looking for when you get a solicitor to do searches for. You can do them yourself, for not much money, but it's time consuming and you might miss something.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4612
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 16 8:36 pm Post subject:
Registered mean`s,if it`s registered with the Land Registry.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 16 8:45 pm Post subject:

Ty Gwyn wrote:

Registered mean`s,if it`s registered with the Land Registry.

Which is about 90% of the land in the UK. And small holding has no actual definition.

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 16 9:58 pm Post subject:

sally_in_wales wrote:

wellington womble wrote:

You might also want to check what planning category the land is.

I think you'd have to phone planning and ask, tbh. Or make the estate agen do it. They must have lots of time left after they've counted the bedrooms.

joanne

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 7100
Location: Morecambe, Lancashire

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 16 5:52 am Post subject:

You should be given that information with the blurb from the Estate Agent under the Consumer Protection Act. This says that you should be provided with sufficient information upfront that will enable you to make a proper decision. However most estate agents still think they come under the property misdescriptions act which no longer exists - that was basically if they don't ask don't tell.

You can usually find the information you want at the Land Registry if the Agent won't provide it even though they should as the liability rests with both them and the vendor. There will be reference to covenants etc. Of relevance in the register document. If something is revealed later in the process that would have made a significant difference in your decision to buy the property then you can claim the costs upto that point in damages.

A real life example is that my colleague at work was 6 weeks into buying a house when they discovered that the strip of land down the side of the house that had the double garage on it and a significant part of the garden wasn't actually owned by the vendors but leased from British Rail. The vendors knew this and hadn't bothered to mention it to the Agent and he hadn't asked! If the Agent had got the register and title plan from the Land Reg it would have been obvious from the beginning.

You need to get a copy of the register, plan and any covenants, they are only about £3 each so are worth buying yourself before you get to solicitor stage.

I'm not a conveyancer but I've had to read so many of the damn things to understand what is the pertinent information so know the basics.

However I must emphasise that most agents are completely ignorant of this and haven't a clue, the rural agents being particularly ignorant, the Agents in places like London are much more savvy as its so cut-throat. I know because I sit next to someone who used to be an Agent for a large national group and she says she's only learnt this stuff since coming to work for us selling a solution back to other agents. Her training on the actual regs was pitiful!

Last edited by joanne on Mon Apr 25, 16 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total

john of wessex

Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 2130

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 16 9:11 pm Post subject:
I had the same problem with my previous house - the vendors didn't own the garden. I made sure when it was sold that the particulars were very clear about what the purchaser was - and was not getting

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